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	<title>Comments on: Passive vessels, step right up!</title>
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		<title>By: Noble Savage &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Five more things</title>
		<link>http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/comment-page-1/#comment-2437</link>
		<dc:creator>Noble Savage &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Five more things</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/#comment-2437</guid>
		<description>[...] Bolded emphasis mine. All I can say is big HELL NO, doctors should not be overriding anything when it comes to their patients. Women do not lose their brainpower, their autonomy, their judgment or their rights when they become pregnant. And since when did having &#8220;great expectations about giving birth&#8221; become synonymous with diminished capacity to make decisions? This is the crap I was talking about in my recent post. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bolded emphasis mine. All I can say is big HELL NO, doctors should not be overriding anything when it comes to their patients. Women do not lose their brainpower, their autonomy, their judgment or their rights when they become pregnant. And since when did having &#8220;great expectations about giving birth&#8221; become synonymous with diminished capacity to make decisions? This is the crap I was talking about in my recent post. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2009-01-31 &#171; Shut Up, Sit Down</title>
		<link>http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/comment-page-1/#comment-2435</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2009-01-31 &#171; Shut Up, Sit Down</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/#comment-2435</guid>
		<description>[...] Noble Savage » Blog Archive » Passive vessels, step right up! &quot;First and foremost, that the doctors have been the focus of the story, not the mother or the babies. The opening paragraph of this story in the LA Times is all about the team of physicians, surgeons and nurses and what a good job they did in planning the birth “for weeks.” No mention of the woman’s plans or fears for the birth, or mention of her health other than “Mom is doing well.” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Noble Savage » Blog Archive » Passive vessels, step right up! &quot;First and foremost, that the doctors have been the focus of the story, not the mother or the babies. The opening paragraph of this story in the LA Times is all about the team of physicians, surgeons and nurses and what a good job they did in planning the birth “for weeks.” No mention of the woman’s plans or fears for the birth, or mention of her health other than “Mom is doing well.” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NS</title>
		<link>http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/comment-page-1/#comment-2426</link>
		<dc:creator>NS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/#comment-2426</guid>
		<description>I ackowledged that it wouldn&#039;t have been practical for her to hold the babies, I just thought it was a bit insensitive to mention how lovingly the doctors held them as they were passed around when the parents weren&#039;t able to be the first to hold their children. That doesn&#039;t mean I think they&#039;re heartless bastards, I just thought they seemed to be taking the &#039;credit&#039; for the birth, sidelining the mother in the process. 

As for how fast it was -- I don&#039;t doubt that they had good intentions and did things in the best manner for the babies but I still can&#039;t comprehend how they got eight babies out in five minutes when it usually takes at least that long when a single baby is delivered by c-section. Many women describe the tugging and &#039;rummaging around in your insides&#039; feeling as quite unpleasant and I can imagine that pulling that many babies out that fast could&#039;ve been seriously uncomfortable and even painful for her. Yes, I know they did this out of concern for the babies but I can&#039;t help but speculate on how she felt about the whole experience when it was such a whirlwind and a circus. 

When I talked in my previous comment about doctors not always having communicative and informative relationships with their patients I was talking in more general terms about OBs and birth, not about this case in particular. I could go into more detail about how I came to this conclusion and formed this opinion but I&#039;m tired of talking about this right now so I&#039;m going to leave it. I might write another post about it in the near future though. 

Thanks for the discussion and feedback! I&#039;m closing comments now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ackowledged that it wouldn&#8217;t have been practical for her to hold the babies, I just thought it was a bit insensitive to mention how lovingly the doctors held them as they were passed around when the parents weren&#8217;t able to be the first to hold their children. That doesn&#8217;t mean I think they&#8217;re heartless bastards, I just thought they seemed to be taking the &#8216;credit&#8217; for the birth, sidelining the mother in the process. </p>
<p>As for how fast it was &#8212; I don&#8217;t doubt that they had good intentions and did things in the best manner for the babies but I still can&#8217;t comprehend how they got eight babies out in five minutes when it usually takes at least that long when a single baby is delivered by c-section. Many women describe the tugging and &#8216;rummaging around in your insides&#8217; feeling as quite unpleasant and I can imagine that pulling that many babies out that fast could&#8217;ve been seriously uncomfortable and even painful for her. Yes, I know they did this out of concern for the babies but I can&#8217;t help but speculate on how she felt about the whole experience when it was such a whirlwind and a circus. </p>
<p>When I talked in my previous comment about doctors not always having communicative and informative relationships with their patients I was talking in more general terms about OBs and birth, not about this case in particular. I could go into more detail about how I came to this conclusion and formed this opinion but I&#8217;m tired of talking about this right now so I&#8217;m going to leave it. I might write another post about it in the near future though. </p>
<p>Thanks for the discussion and feedback! I&#8217;m closing comments now.</p>
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		<title>By: Krista</title>
		<link>http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/comment-page-1/#comment-2423</link>
		<dc:creator>Krista</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/#comment-2423</guid>
		<description>Out of interest, I read another story which stated that the mother lives with her parents in a house in a neighborhood with 2- and 3-bedroom homes.  And that she already has 6 children, 2 of them twins.

There was no mention of the father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out of interest, I read another story which stated that the mother lives with her parents in a house in a neighborhood with 2- and 3-bedroom homes.  And that she already has 6 children, 2 of them twins.</p>
<p>There was no mention of the father.</p>
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		<title>By: jen</title>
		<link>http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/comment-page-1/#comment-2422</link>
		<dc:creator>jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesavage.me.uk/2009/01/28/passive-vessels-step-right-up/#comment-2422</guid>
		<description>&quot;It just seems so…fast, and a bit brutal.&quot;

yeah, that was my thought too tabitha - when babies weigh that little and are that premature, the potential for immediate health crises is pretty high (lungs not fully developed, etc), and i just assumed that they whisked them out quickly in case they needed resuscitation/oxygen/heat.  i&#039;d guess any delays could be very risky.  thus the teams of dr.s for each baby, to ensure each child had a maximum chance of survival.

&quot;I disagree, however, that because the parents may have received fertility treatments (we don’t know that as of yet, though it’s pretty unlikely they didn’t) that they should expect a completely medicalised event.&quot;

oh, i don&#039;t think it has anything to do with fertility treatments that they had to have a medicalised birth, but the fact that they had 8 children at once!  my only point in mentioning the fertility treatments is that (unless this was a natural biological miracle), medicine is what created this situation in the first place, and medicine is what allowed all 8 babies and the mother to survive.  from beginning to end, this is a unique situation created by medicine.  ideal? no - but i bet the mom is probably pretty grateful that she&#039;s got (what appears to be) 8 very much wanted and healthy children. 

re: drs developing relationships with their patients.  of course.  but i&#039;m not sure we can infer from the little information we know that this was NOT the case here, and i guess i bristle at the immediate assumption that it wasn&#039;t.  in fact, given the amount of intensive monitoring she must&#039;ve been under, i&#039;d guess she probably had more of a relationship with her dr(s) than most women.  whether that relationship was good or bad, we simply don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It just seems so…fast, and a bit brutal.&#8221;</p>
<p>yeah, that was my thought too tabitha &#8211; when babies weigh that little and are that premature, the potential for immediate health crises is pretty high (lungs not fully developed, etc), and i just assumed that they whisked them out quickly in case they needed resuscitation/oxygen/heat.  i&#8217;d guess any delays could be very risky.  thus the teams of dr.s for each baby, to ensure each child had a maximum chance of survival.</p>
<p>&#8220;I disagree, however, that because the parents may have received fertility treatments (we don’t know that as of yet, though it’s pretty unlikely they didn’t) that they should expect a completely medicalised event.&#8221;</p>
<p>oh, i don&#8217;t think it has anything to do with fertility treatments that they had to have a medicalised birth, but the fact that they had 8 children at once!  my only point in mentioning the fertility treatments is that (unless this was a natural biological miracle), medicine is what created this situation in the first place, and medicine is what allowed all 8 babies and the mother to survive.  from beginning to end, this is a unique situation created by medicine.  ideal? no &#8211; but i bet the mom is probably pretty grateful that she&#8217;s got (what appears to be) 8 very much wanted and healthy children. </p>
<p>re: drs developing relationships with their patients.  of course.  but i&#8217;m not sure we can infer from the little information we know that this was NOT the case here, and i guess i bristle at the immediate assumption that it wasn&#8217;t.  in fact, given the amount of intensive monitoring she must&#8217;ve been under, i&#8217;d guess she probably had more of a relationship with her dr(s) than most women.  whether that relationship was good or bad, we simply don&#8217;t know.</p>
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