Comments on: For the benefit of men http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/ Tue, 29 Nov 2011 22:50:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Courtney http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/comment-page-1/#comment-1505 Courtney Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:04:00 +0000 http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/#comment-1505 I think any son you raise will carry your compassion and sensitivity within him. Not yet having read the book, I can't comment on it, but I think your your flash of fear is a very human, very honest thing to admit, and I find this post very brave and beautiful. I think any son you raise will carry your compassion and sensitivity within him. Not yet having read the book, I can’t comment on it, but I think your your flash of fear is a very human, very honest thing to admit, and I find this post very brave and beautiful.

]]> By: NS http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/comment-page-1/#comment-1504 NS Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:15:14 +0000 http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/#comment-1504 Hi BC! I see what you're saying about women's suffering but I don't know if the chloroform thing is the best example as it wasn't just because they felt that women should suffer through childbirth that people were against it. Chloroform knocks a person completely out most times or at least leaves them unable to move or remember what happened. It was called 'twilight sleep' and became very popular during Victorian times as a fashionable and forward-thinking thing to do. However, drugging women completely out of experiencing their children's births and making them physically paralyzed isn't exactly ideal. A woman needs to be awake to effectively push a baby out and the use of forceps skyrocketed during that time as the power of the contracting uterus alone wasn't quite enough in many cases to get the baby out. In order to use forceps without tearing the mother's genitals to bits, obstetricians began performing routine episiotimies and soon, 'getting the cut' became routine as well. I don't know about other women, but my ideal birth does not include laying lifeless on a table, drugged out of my gourd, having my vagina cut open and my baby extracted with metal claws. Yeeeooowch! Many would argue that actually giving women back the control in birthing their babies while awake and aware but with access to less debilitating pain relief if they need it is the most humane and woman-centered option and is at the heart of the natural childbirth movement. Sorry to have gone off on such an off-topic ramble! Hi BC! I see what you’re saying about women’s suffering but I don’t know if the chloroform thing is the best example as it wasn’t just because they felt that women should suffer through childbirth that people were against it. Chloroform knocks a person completely out most times or at least leaves them unable to move or remember what happened. It was called ‘twilight sleep’ and became very popular during Victorian times as a fashionable and forward-thinking thing to do. However, drugging women completely out of experiencing their children’s births and making them physically paralyzed isn’t exactly ideal. A woman needs to be awake to effectively push a baby out and the use of forceps skyrocketed during that time as the power of the contracting uterus alone wasn’t quite enough in many cases to get the baby out.

In order to use forceps without tearing the mother’s genitals to bits, obstetricians began performing routine episiotimies and soon, ‘getting the cut’ became routine as well. I don’t know about other women, but my ideal birth does not include laying lifeless on a table, drugged out of my gourd, having my vagina cut open and my baby extracted with metal claws. Yeeeooowch! Many would argue that actually giving women back the control in birthing their babies while awake and aware but with access to less debilitating pain relief if they need it is the most humane and woman-centered option and is at the heart of the natural childbirth movement.

Sorry to have gone off on such an off-topic ramble!

]]> By: Babychaos http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/comment-page-1/#comment-1502 Babychaos Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:28:29 +0000 http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/#comment-1502 I read a pretty upsetting book recently along similar lines but it was a biography of a year in a family in Kabul. One of the women had fallen in love and wanted to be a teacher. She couldn't be a teacher because the men in the family decided against it. They also decided against letting her marry the man she loved - who was keen on her too - by telling him she was dishonoured etc. I was angry, frustrated and pissed off until I read something else. In 1847 chloroform was first used to alleviate the pain of child birth. This sparked off a debate, like the one we're having about genetics, stemcell research etc now, about whether or not it should be used. One side arguing it was humane the other that becuase of Eve's activities in the bible, women deserved to suffer as it was part of God's punishment. This was in enlightened western victorian society. It gives me hope. Maybe in a hundred years or so, women will be worth something in other societies the way they are in this one. God knows why we are so scary that we have to be kept down so. Anyway. There you go. Cheers BC I read a pretty upsetting book recently along similar lines but it was a biography of a year in a family in Kabul. One of the women had fallen in love and wanted to be a teacher. She couldn’t be a teacher because the men in the family decided against it. They also decided against letting her marry the man she loved – who was keen on her too – by telling him she was dishonoured etc.

I was angry, frustrated and pissed off until I read something else. In 1847 chloroform was first used to alleviate the pain of child birth. This sparked off a debate, like the one we’re having about genetics, stemcell research etc now, about whether or not it should be used. One side arguing it was humane the other that becuase of Eve’s activities in the bible, women deserved to suffer as it was part of God’s punishment. This was in enlightened western victorian society. It gives me hope. Maybe in a hundred years or so, women will be worth something in other societies the way they are in this one. God knows why we are so scary that we have to be kept down so.

Anyway. There you go.

Cheers

BC

]]> By: NS http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/comment-page-1/#comment-1500 NS Fri, 18 Apr 2008 05:55:40 +0000 http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/#comment-1500 Jen, there are a couple of specific things from the book that I wanted to bring up to take this discussion further but since I don't want to post any spoilers, I think it's wise if I leave it there. We can always finish this conversation on Sunday over lunch! :) Charlotte, I agree with your questioning of how women can protect their children and affect change when they don't have even the most basic rights, like being able to go out in public unaccompanied, or have a bank account, or hold down a paying job. Again, there are examples from the book that I would say evidenced these women protecting their children as best they could but I won't post spoilers so we'll have to discuss it another time. Jen, there are a couple of specific things from the book that I wanted to bring up to take this discussion further but since I don’t want to post any spoilers, I think it’s wise if I leave it there. We can always finish this conversation on Sunday over lunch! :)

Charlotte, I agree with your questioning of how women can protect their children and affect change when they don’t have even the most basic rights, like being able to go out in public unaccompanied, or have a bank account, or hold down a paying job. Again, there are examples from the book that I would say evidenced these women protecting their children as best they could but I won’t post spoilers so we’ll have to discuss it another time.

]]> By: Charlotte http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/comment-page-1/#comment-1499 Charlotte Fri, 18 Apr 2008 04:53:40 +0000 http://noblesavage.me.uk/2008/04/17/for-the-benefit-of-men/#comment-1499 I've read the book and was both terribly moved and angered by it. I think what is so immensely difficult for women in societies like the one described is that their abuse is systematised. How do you escape/change/free yourself or your daughter when you can't walk down a street unaccompanied by a man? When society deprives you of the most basic human rights, even in your own home, how can you make a difference? I remember reading that women in Afghanistan were most free under Russian rule: they were allowed to pursue education and considered themselves equals. Then came the hideous rule of the Taliban, which this book describes, and now things are very slowly changing. Like you, I am angry about men who consider women their chattels. But I am hopeful because I have a chance to educate two daughters and one son that patriarchy and unfair privileging of one sex over another is wrong. I’ve read the book and was both terribly moved and angered by it. I think what is so immensely difficult for women in societies like the one described is that their abuse is systematised. How do you escape/change/free yourself or your daughter when you can’t walk down a street unaccompanied by a man? When society deprives you of the most basic human rights, even in your own home, how can you make a difference?

I remember reading that women in Afghanistan were most free under Russian rule: they were allowed to pursue education and considered themselves equals. Then came the hideous rule of the Taliban, which this book describes, and now things are very slowly changing.

Like you, I am angry about men who consider women their chattels. But I am hopeful because I have a chance to educate two daughters and one son that patriarchy and unfair privileging of one sex over another is wrong.

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